tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post7933153691254134778..comments2024-01-06T07:18:43.593-08:00Comments on The Battle of California: An Open Letter to CanadaJames Mirtlehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11221488913251638181noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-50791451627592591462007-12-19T17:20:00.000-08:002007-12-19T17:20:00.000-08:00Great post! and i ohhhhhh so agree with you about ...Great post! and i ohhhhhh so agree with you about jim rome (i can't stand the dude)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-76550552451182931072007-12-18T17:04:00.000-08:002007-12-18T17:04:00.000-08:00I'm Canadian and thought this was a great post, th...I'm Canadian and thought this was a great post, though like the above I don't agree with every point. Come on everyone, we dish it out all the time about how our southern neighbours don't get hockey - remember when they were trying to superimpose a big circle around the puck on televised games so that American viewers could follow the action better? I think we can take a little teasing in return.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-20624720430484888082007-12-18T15:09:00.000-08:002007-12-18T15:09:00.000-08:00The choice is yours: do you want to keep hockey an...<I>The choice is yours: do you want to keep hockey and watch it sink into an abyss shared by lacrosse, <B>soccer</B>, and paintball...</I><BR/><BR/>I mean, if that isn't the perfect coup de grace of an outstanding blog post, I don't know what is. Hahahahaha...Jesus Fucking Christ forbid that hockey "sink into the abyss" of the most popular fucking sport in the entire world, played and followed religiously by billions of people. That is just awesome stuff. Please post more - as much as I like Earl's cartoons, I think you really have some powerful insight to share.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-65234757029110402412007-12-18T08:10:00.000-08:002007-12-18T08:10:00.000-08:00I think you've missed the point. It's not that Ca...I think you've missed the point. It's not that Canadians don't want the NHL to succeed, but it pisses us off when the NHL is trying to sell a great product in a place where people aren't interested in buying while ignoring places that are desperate to buy.<BR/><BR/>The NHL did nothing while Quebec city and Winnipeg were tossed aside, but has made tremendous effort to keep Shittsburgh and Nashville alive. It's a little painful to see.MacShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825358966465275254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-4261093393504939752007-12-17T19:26:00.000-08:002007-12-17T19:26:00.000-08:00one suggestion I have is not allowing the goalies ...<I>one suggestion I have is not allowing the goalies to play the puck at all...make the defenders think twice about standing up at the blue line</I><BR/><BR/>Because the trapezoid has done a fucking lot of good, promoting dump-and-chase and preventing swift transitions from the defensive zone (and comical goaltender puck-bobbling) as it has. How about we duct-tape the goalies to the crossbars, Eddie Shore style, to keep them from wandering <I>or</I> dropping into the butterfly? It makes about as much fucking sense.<BR/><BR/>And look, I understand people want more attacking and rushes and whatnot, and I do, too (though I don't think that particular problem is nearly as bad as some), but it's not going to happen. The 1980s were a perfect storm of circumstances that served to promote offence (and demote defence), and you're not getting it back. You just won't be able to convince 30 coaches that abdicating all defensive responsibility in favour of GOALS GOALS GOALS is going to win them more hockey games. Most coaches give their offensive stars a wide degree of latitude in the offensive zone, so long as they don't do something so mindbendingly stupid even the guy who's never seen a game in his life is asking his friend, "What the fuck was that?" I think at this point it would take such a fundamental change in the nature of the game that you wouldn't really have "hockey" as such anymore. It's not like 75 years ago, when the game was still being developed, and allowing the forward pass reignited offence. I'd love to be wrong, but I'm not convinced.<BR/><BR/>Now, if you're talking about more flow, I'm all for that. Get rid of the second referee, give the first some leeway in calling obstruction, especially in the attacking zones, and kill the retarded new delay of game penalties, and you'll cut down on chintzy power-plays dramatically. The best part of Saturday's VAN-EDM game, for example, was the first period, when there were almost no whistles and only one power-play.<BR/><BR/><I>With less exposure and less money, it will not attract the greatest players as it does now.</I><BR/><BR/>Even though most of the money right now comes from Canada and the northern US?<BR/><BR/><I>I think we'd all be better off (even Canadian fans) if NHL hockey was played in a way that Nashville residents found appealing.</I><BR/><BR/>I've been to Nashville. I've been to a game at the Sommet Center. I don't think they're particularly special in terms of what they like in a hockey game: speed, finesse, and a healthy dollop of violence, just like all of us. All I'm opposed to are radical, artificial alterations that fly in the face of tradition, style, and logic.<BR/><BR/><I>What exactly led Bettman to believe that hockey would flourish in Nashville or Florida? It wasn't because there are successful minor league teams there, because there ain't. They looked a big map of the US, found the empty spots, and picked the nearest city to put a team in.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly. Houston has a history of major-league hockey, with the Aeros. The northwest has over 100 years of supporting the pro game, and a few Stanley Cups from the Lester and Frank Patrick days to back it up. Phoenix had a history of pro hockey, at the WHA and IHL levels. Hell, I'd have given KC another try before Miami. Some cities made sense -- Ottawa, Minnesota II, Columbus -- but many others did not. I'd like to have seen one of those teams go somewhere like Seattle, personally. (Medium-sized Canadian cities didn't make sense in the late 90s, due to the state of the dollar, otherwise, I'd have advocated for the usual suspects north of the border, too.)Doogie2Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14703778878103452453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-57883988711847197952007-12-17T15:25:00.000-08:002007-12-17T15:25:00.000-08:00intresting postintresting postAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-14882856400126228982007-12-17T15:11:00.000-08:002007-12-17T15:11:00.000-08:00Canadian Population : 33,390,141Population of U.S....Canadian Population : 33,390,141<BR/>Population of U.S. Southern States: 109,083,752<BR/>(Rough and out-dated numbers, of course. I didn't just go out and count or anything)<BR/><BR/>I'm the first to completely dismiss the opinions of anyone who enjoys NASCAR, so I hate to have to point to the South as an important part of hockey's future, but the numbers are there. That's a market that the NHL can and MUST strive for. They can't just write it off.<BR/><BR/> Hockey can survive as a sport and as an idea just fine without anyone south of the Canadian border giving a damn - but as a business and as an international entity, which it is and which it must be, the NHL needs to be on the lookout for exploitable markets. It's worked in California and other places, as Rudy has already pointed out - there is no reason to give up on other non-traditional markets and the millions of dollars and countless fans that may be out there.Megalodonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16636316716655329093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-80447287232842860132007-12-17T14:57:00.000-08:002007-12-17T14:57:00.000-08:00Why can't Preds fans be diehard hockey fans?Of cou...<I>Why can't Preds fans be diehard hockey fans?</I><BR/><BR/>Of course they can be. My point is when you just slam down a new sport in a market that doesn't show a propensity to support that new sport, I'm not particularly surprised when they have trouble filling the barn. The novelty of hockey and civic pride in being awarded a pro franchise has worn off, and now people are starting to realize the foundation of the Preds is built on sand.<BR/><BR/>I'm not trying to disparage NSH here, any more than I would disparage Albuquerque for failing to support a new cricket league.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03746276843496274779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-51541181688048582762007-12-17T14:23:00.000-08:002007-12-17T14:23:00.000-08:00his baseball skills were pretty good...his baseball skills were pretty good...Sean Zandberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16367951232268606248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-21616823004541242332007-12-17T13:28:00.000-08:002007-12-17T13:28:00.000-08:00thank you zanstorm...I can now check that off my l...thank you zanstorm...I can now check that off my list...next up...what happened to the Bud Ice "Doobie Doobie Due" Penguin<BR/><BR/>p.s. U sure you didnt like when he made that self serving beer contraption. He was suppose to make a book shelf...anywaysAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-66155137025610889632007-12-17T13:21:00.000-08:002007-12-17T13:21:00.000-08:00I actually had to go to YouTube to watch those com...I actually had to go to YouTube to watch those commercials. They weren't very good. Odds are that bear got poached by some drive-by shooters in a 1977 Chev pick up, and he's now a rug in front of someone's fireplace.Sean Zandberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16367951232268606248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-35047938348963022932007-12-17T12:51:00.000-08:002007-12-17T12:51:00.000-08:00another comment goes by and still no one has told ...another comment goes by and still no one has told me what happened to the Labat Blue Bear. He was real crafty with making that beer dispenser and with the chics...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-42395505212139535492007-12-17T12:47:00.000-08:002007-12-17T12:47:00.000-08:00While I don't entirely agree with Rudy, and I do t...While I don't entirely agree with Rudy, and I do think there are certain markets--Southern or otherwise--that won't support NHL hockey in the forseeable future, I also think that there are plenty of Southern markets that <I>will</I> support pro hockey and that people in traditional markets are often too quick to condemn them. Winning is part that, of course, but so is the cultivation of a grassroots hockey culture and involvement with the community. I think there are certain Southern teams that prove that and their entry into hockey culture via NHL teams is a good thing for both the sport and the league. <BR/><BR/>It seems to me that it's something that will require a lot of patience--maybe more than Nashville's been met with--but eventually growth into new markets can only help to bring the league both new fans and new talent. I think there's also been an awful lot of schadenfreude surrounding the Nashville sale and most of that has been coming from traditional hockey markets. It's too bad, because the way I see it, there are kids watching hockey in those markets who will grow up to be diehard hockey fans and supporters.Meghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09694504731204384103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-76047108883767846692007-12-17T12:26:00.000-08:002007-12-17T12:26:00.000-08:00No Rudy, I don't care if Nashville fails. If they ...No Rudy, I don't care if Nashville fails. If they can't hold a team there, then move it. Big deal. A failed market. Dog-eat-dog, man.<BR/>I wouldn't even care if the NHL went back to 20 teams. Works for me. As long as there is good hockey games on tv, not some dilluted hockey that some corporate jackoffs decided would be more appealing to the masses. <BR/><BR/>I like the more wide open style of the game, but we really need more fighting in the NHL, yes we do. More blood and guts. People eat that shit right up.<BR/><BR/>I don't like your post, Rudy. It reeks of BS. It makes me dislike Americans. Good for conversation though! <BR/><BR/>PS: Hey, ever ridden on a dogsled? It's fun! We do it 365 days a year.<BR/>You should see the Xmas tree I have going in my igloo right now.Sean Zandberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16367951232268606248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-48011232592580433162007-12-17T12:15:00.000-08:002007-12-17T12:15:00.000-08:00I might be in the small minority here, but I think...<I>I might be in the small minority here, but I think hockey is entertaining and exciting as it is.</I><BR/><BR/>Sure, I'm sure there are many that think hockey today is the shit; for me, I think it's gone downhill--too much referee presence, not enough prioritization of 5-on-5 scoring, and the preferred scoring play du jour seems to be throwing it to the point and seeing whether the puck can pinball in. <BR/><BR/>But I think it is important for the viability of the sport that we do think about the question: is it even remotely good if you are indeed in the small minority entertained by the modern-day PP parade? <BR/><BR/>I still say there's plenty of improvement to be had, and again, I look at markets like Nashville as a good barometer of that. Rather than looking at NSH attendance and saying, "What's wrong with Nashville?", I'm more inclined to say, "What's wrong with NHL hockey?" Maybe it's because I'm from a non-traditional background myself, but I was once won over by a sport I didn't grow up with; it is kind of depressing (and telling) that the ability to win over non-fans seems to be dying.Earl Sleekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15843720035500316419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-57748378391428495502007-12-17T12:01:00.000-08:002007-12-17T12:01:00.000-08:00Why can't Preds fans be diehard hockey fans?Why can't Preds fans be diehard hockey fans?RudyKellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05935847996131016457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-74223855816800797822007-12-17T11:59:00.000-08:002007-12-17T11:59:00.000-08:00Maybe my point boils down to this: if we hockey fa...<I>Maybe my point boils down to this: if we hockey fans believe that today's version of power play hockey is as entertaining as the NHL will ever get, then yes--let's get the fuck out of Nashville. If however (and this is a huge 'if') we believe that there is a more entertaining or exciting version of NHL hockey somewhere on the horizon, then I don't think we should be so quick to judge NSH's response to 6-man-defense hockey; it says very little about how they might respond to a better, more creative version of the sport.</I><BR/><BR/>I might be in the small minority here, but I think hockey is entertaining and exciting as it is. Trying to reverse-engineer some opiate for the masses is a fools errand. The public is fickle, and you'll drive the hardcore fans away. <BR/><BR/><I>BTW, I don't judge individuals for deciding not to spend their money to watch their team suck on the ice (I know I'd spend less money to see a shitty team); I don't think I'm going to get in the habit of judging entire markets for that suckage-response.</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed, but wouldn't you agree that if the crowd was composed of diehard hockey fans instead of just Preds fans, it might be different?Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03746276843496274779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-36235744172999350432007-12-17T11:39:00.000-08:002007-12-17T11:39:00.000-08:00Isn't one measure of a successful market being tha...<I>Isn't one measure of a successful market being that a team can keep fans even when the teams sucks? All expansion teams suck at first.</I><BR/><BR/>Like Rudy, I probably have to be clearer here: I wasn't referring to the Preds' on-ice success, but rather the watchability / entertainment value of NHL hockey.<BR/><BR/>Maybe my point boils down to this: if we hockey fans believe that today's version of power play hockey is as entertaining as the NHL will ever get, then yes--let's get the fuck out of Nashville. If however (and this is a huge 'if') we believe that there is a more entertaining or exciting version of NHL hockey somewhere on the horizon, then I don't think we should be so quick to judge NSH's response to 6-man-defense hockey; it says very little about how they might respond to a better, more creative version of the sport.<BR/><BR/>BTW, I don't judge individuals for deciding not to spend their money to watch their team suck on the ice (I know I'd spend less money to see a shitty team); I don't think I'm going to get in the habit of judging entire markets for that suckage-response.Earl Sleekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15843720035500316419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-72446006822661694452007-12-17T11:20:00.000-08:002007-12-17T11:20:00.000-08:00It's just a market that responds more quickly to t...<I>It's just a market that responds more quickly to the quality of the product (in econ, we call this 'elasticity of demand'); if the hockey sucks people stay away and if the hockey's good presumably they'd fill the arena.</I><BR/><BR/>Isn't one measure of a successful market being that a team can keep fans even when the teams sucks? All expansion teams suck at first. Some will get better quickly, some won't. If an expansion team needs to make the playoffs for the first 15 years they're in the league to remain solvent, then I would argue it's not a suitable hockey market.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03746276843496274779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-63192583558119745232007-12-17T11:11:00.000-08:002007-12-17T11:11:00.000-08:00Also drawing young local talent might not have any...Also drawing young local talent might not have anything at all to do with having a local team in a sunny market. <BR/><BR/>Here in Socal, a season of Ice Hockey will cost me around $600.00, but the roller is $125.00. I love the hell out of hockey, but I can not afford to play Ice, let alone my 2 boys, So we play roller (at around $400 every 2 months). <BR/><BR/>Not many roller hockey players get drafted to the NHL.<BR/><BR/>The kids up north just go outside and skate on a frozen pond with the rest of the block, for FREE.<BR/><BR/>Hell people around here do not even leave the house when it gets near 40 degrees.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-30212787330097596202007-12-17T11:08:00.000-08:002007-12-17T11:08:00.000-08:00I'm a born and raised Californian myself. And I w...I'm a born and raised Californian myself. And I would still be a diehard fan even if the Sharks got contracted tomorrow. But my problem with the Bettman plan isn't that he's trying to put teams in new markets, it's just that the league seems to be more interested in franchise fees than anything else. What exactly led Bettman to believe that hockey would flourish in Nashville or Florida? It wasn't because there are successful minor league teams there, because there ain't. They looked a big map of the US, found the empty spots, and picked the nearest city to put a team in. <BR/><BR/>To me, the way to keep the NHL growing and successful is to put in places where it makes sense, not just places where you can make money for a few years. <BR/><BR/>There's a bajillion ways for people to spend the entertainment dollar these days. Thinking you can just plop down a team and people will come when there's no hockey culture or a ready fan base is the ultimate in hubris. Hockey needs to be built a bit at a time in my view- build rinks, start a youth program, high school teams, college teams, minor league teams, then you do the due diligence to see if the city would support a team for 30 years. Finding some rich guy and an empty arena in Kansas City and saying "there!" is a recipe for failure. THAT is what will kill hockey in America- people pointing at a series of failures and asking (reasonably) "Look at all these places where it's died - Isn't hockey dead?"Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03746276843496274779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-13108368836772515812007-12-17T10:55:00.000-08:002007-12-17T10:55:00.000-08:00As much as people hate to admit it, I think Nashvi...As much as people hate to admit it, I think Nashville is more a barometer for this league than an anomaly market. It's just a market that responds more quickly to the quality of the product (in econ, we call this 'elasticity of demand'); if the hockey sucks people stay away and if the hockey's good presumably they'd fill the arena.<BR/><BR/>The more hockey fans see Nashville's attendance numbers as irrelevant to the health of the sport, I think the worse off the NHL becomes. I'm a guy who became a hockey fan without ever playing, and I think there is something uniquely captivating about hockey, but with all the power plays and blue line defenses the attraction is definitely diluted.<BR/><BR/>I think NSH's attendance struggles can show us this reality more than Canada's full houses, but I think people are way too eager to slam U.S. southerners and Bettman's vision to take the warning seriously, which I think is a shame. I think we'd all be better off (even Canadian fans) if NHL hockey was played in a way that Nashville residents found appealing. If the NHL plans on only being watchable / tolerable in its hotbeds, well we probably all lose. ('Plans' is definitely the wrong word when it comes to NHL strategy, but whatever.)Earl Sleekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15843720035500316419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-26106275229596694632007-12-17T10:50:00.000-08:002007-12-17T10:50:00.000-08:00Rudy, your overall ignorance is only fuelled by th...Rudy, your overall ignorance is only fuelled by the fact that you're overlooking the major reason for hockey in the south failing: if no one cared about it before, and suddenly they got a team, why would they care about it now?<BR/><BR/>The only people who are going to games in Carolina, Atlanta, Nashville, Miami and Phoenix are those fans who have discovered the niche sport. Those fans cannot support a franchise that requires hundreds of millions of dollars to operate.<BR/><BR/>Your argument of blaming Canadians for Americans not going to games is ridiculous. I suggest you read these two articles I wrote:<BR/><BR/>http://hockey-blog-in-canada.blogspot.com/2007/03/part-of-our-social-fabric.html<BR/><BR/>http://hockey-blog-in-canada.blogspot.com/2007/06/revisiting-that-social-fabric.html<BR/><BR/>Just so you know, I am all for hockey in non-traditional markets, but only if they work to make the league better. If no one goes to games and no one knows you exist, you'll remain irrelevant. And that's precisely what the NHL doesn't need if it hopes to grow the game.Teebzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00538474727022437837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-73650601601018483772007-12-17T10:36:00.000-08:002007-12-17T10:36:00.000-08:00"Do I hope that Nashville fails? No. I just don't ..."Do I hope that Nashville fails? No. I just don't care if they do."<BR/><BR/>Christ, dude, that seems harsh. Did you care when Winnipeg or Quebec failed?RudyKellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05935847996131016457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27850362.post-36023788630970595522007-12-17T10:34:00.000-08:002007-12-17T10:34:00.000-08:00There is no HBO to save a struggling NHL. If it we...There is no HBO to save a struggling NHL. If it were to recede and become a niche sport in Canada and the Northern U.S., like some people here seem to be okay with, then it would cease to be the premiere hockey league in the world. <BR/><BR/>With less exposure and less money, it will not attract the greatest players as it does now.Megalodonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16636316716655329093noreply@blogger.com